[all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

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[all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Jeremy Stanley
The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators
mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of
cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to
reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to
one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of
subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to
bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together
into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps
coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing
lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver
at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides:

1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different
place than many of the people who have the answers to those
questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML
title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users
deeper).

2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order
of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other
three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap
between them; combining those lists would have been a better
solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be.

3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is
cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics
that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which
one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the
fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from
participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which
they're subscribed,

4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of
the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if
not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of
the various cross-posts if these lists were combined.

The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its
software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is
changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates,
distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking
much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet
(we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average,
after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to
tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other
participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and
so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the
combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]).
None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of
continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try
to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your
questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera.

As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about
experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new
features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this
easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in
light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above
hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version
we're currently using.

Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this
message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;)

[1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community
[2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics
--
Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Rico Lin-2
+1 on this idea, people been posting around for the exactly same topic and got feedback from ops or devs, but never together, this will help people do discussion on the same table.

What needs to be done for this is full topic categories support under `options` page so people get to filter emails properly.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 1:04 AM Jeremy Stanley <[hidden email]> wrote:
The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators
mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of
cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to
reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to
one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of
subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to
bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together
into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps
coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing
lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver
at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides:

1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different
place than many of the people who have the answers to those
questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML
title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users
deeper).

2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order
of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other
three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap
between them; combining those lists would have been a better
solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be.

3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is
cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics
that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which
one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the
fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from
participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which
they're subscribed,

4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of
the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if
not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of
the various cross-posts if these lists were combined.

The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its
software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is
changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates,
distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking
much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet
(we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average,
after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to
tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other
participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and
so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the
combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]).
None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of
continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try
to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your
questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera.

As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about
experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new
features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this
easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in
light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above
hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version
we're currently using.

Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this
message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;)

[1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community
[2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics
--
Jeremy Stanley
_______________________________________________
openstack-sigs mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs

--
May The Force of OpenStack Be With You, 
Rico Lin
irc: ricolin



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Re: [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Doug Hellmann-2
In reply to this post by Jeremy Stanley
Excerpts from Jeremy Stanley's message of 2018-08-30 17:03:50 +0000:

> The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators
> mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of
> cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to
> reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to
> one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of
> subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to
> bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together
> into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps
> coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing
> lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver
> at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides:
>
> 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different
> place than many of the people who have the answers to those
> questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML
> title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users
> deeper).
>
> 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order
> of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other
> three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap
> between them; combining those lists would have been a better
> solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be.
>
> 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is
> cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics
> that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which
> one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the
> fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from
> participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which
> they're subscribed,
>
> 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of
> the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if
> not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of
> the various cross-posts if these lists were combined.
>
> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
> four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its
> software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is
> changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates,
> distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking
> much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet
> (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average,
> after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to
> tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other
> participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and
> so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the
> combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]).
> None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of
> continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try
> to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your
> questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera.
>
> As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about
> experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new
> features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this
> easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in
> light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above
> hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version
> we're currently using.
>
> Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this
> message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;)
>
> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community
> [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics

I fully support the idea of merging the lists.

Doug

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Re: [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Chris Hoge-3
In reply to this post by Jeremy Stanley
I also propose that we merge the interop-wg mailing list also,
as the volume on that list is small but topics posted to it are of
general interest to the community.

Chris Hoge
(Interop WG Secretary, amongst other things)

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 10:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators
> mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of
> cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to
> reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to
> one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of
> subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to
> bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together
> into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps
> coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing
> lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver
> at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides:
>
> 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different
> place than many of the people who have the answers to those
> questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML
> title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users
> deeper).
>
> 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order
> of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other
> three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap
> between them; combining those lists would have been a better
> solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be.
>
> 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is
> cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics
> that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which
> one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the
> fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from
> participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which
> they're subscribed,
>
> 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of
> the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if
> not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of
> the various cross-posts if these lists were combined.
>
> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
> four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its
> software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is
> changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates,
> distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking
> much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet
> (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average,
> after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to
> tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other
> participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and
> so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the
> combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]).
> None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of
> continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try
> to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your
> questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera.
>
> As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about
> experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new
> features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this
> easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in
> light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above
> hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version
> we're currently using.
>
> Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this
> message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;)
>
> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community
> [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics
> --
> Jeremy Stanley
> _______________________________________________
> openstack-sigs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs


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Re: [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Jimmy McArthur-2
In reply to this post by Jeremy Stanley
Absolutely support merging.

Jeremy Stanley wrote:

> The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators
> mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of
> cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to
> reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to
> one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of
> subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to
> bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together
> into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps
> coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing
> lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver
> at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides:
>
> 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different
> place than many of the people who have the answers to those
> questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML
> title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users
> deeper).
>
> 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order
> of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other
> three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap
> between them; combining those lists would have been a better
> solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be.
>
> 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is
> cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics
> that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which
> one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the
> fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from
> participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which
> they're subscribed,
>
> 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of
> the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if
> not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of
> the various cross-posts if these lists were combined.
>
> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
> four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its
> software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is
> changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates,
> distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking
> much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet
> (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average,
> after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to
> tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other
> participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and
> so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the
> combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]).
> None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of
> continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try
> to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your
> questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera.
>
> As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about
> experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new
> features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this
> easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in
> light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above
> hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version
> we're currently using.
>
> Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this
> message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;)
>
> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community
> [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics
> __________________________________________________________________________
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe: [hidden email]?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


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Re: [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Julia Kreger
In reply to this post by Jeremy Stanley
I fully support merging the lists proposed, as well as the interop-wg
list that Chris Hodge proposed. I look forward to the day when cross
posting is no longer a necessary evil.

-Julia
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 10:04 AM Jeremy Stanley <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators
> mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of
> cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to
> reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to
> one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of
> subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to
> bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together
> into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps
> coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing
> lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver
> at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides:
>
> 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different
> place than many of the people who have the answers to those
> questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML
> title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users
> deeper).
>
> 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order
> of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other
> three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap
> between them; combining those lists would have been a better
> solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be.
>
> 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is
> cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics
> that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which
> one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the
> fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from
> participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which
> they're subscribed,
>
> 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of
> the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if
> not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of
> the various cross-posts if these lists were combined.
>
> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
> four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its
> software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is
> changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates,
> distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking
> much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet
> (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average,
> after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to
> tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other
> participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and
> so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the
> combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]).
> None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of
> continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try
> to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your
> questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera.
>
> As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about
> experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new
> features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this
> easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in
> light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above
> hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version
> we're currently using.
>
> Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this
> message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;)
>
> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community
> [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics
> --
> Jeremy Stanley
> __________________________________________________________________________
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe: [hidden email]?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

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Re: [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Chris Friesen
In reply to this post by Jeremy Stanley
On 08/30/2018 11:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:

> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
> four.

Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list?  That could be a busy
list for someone who's just asking a simple usage question.

Alternately, if we are going to merge everything then why not just use the
"openstack" mailing list since it already exists and there are references to it
on the web.

(Or do you want to force people to move to something new to make them recognize
that something has changed?)

Chris

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Re: [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Kristi Nikolla
I’m strongly in support of merging the lists.

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 2:57 PM, Chris Friesen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 08/30/2018 11:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
>
>> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
>> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
>> four.
>
> Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list?  That could be a busy list for someone who's just asking a simple usage question.

True, but it would bring more visibility to the developers about troubles that users are having.

>
> Alternately, if we are going to merge everything then why not just use the "openstack" mailing list since it already exists and there are references to it on the web.
>
> (Or do you want to force people to move to something new to make them recognize that something has changed?)
>
> Chris
>
> __________________________________________________________________________
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe: [hidden email]?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

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Re: [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Thomas Goirand
In reply to this post by Chris Friesen
On 08/30/2018 08:57 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:
> On 08/30/2018 11:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
>
>> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
>> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
>> four.
>
> Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list?
I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in multiple
lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples.

Thomas

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Re: [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Jeremy Stanley
In reply to this post by Rico Lin-2
On 2018-08-31 01:13:58 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote:
[...]
> What needs to be done for this is full topic categories support
> under `options` page so people get to filter emails properly.
[...]

Unfortunately, topic filtering is one of the MM2 features the
Mailman community decided nobody used (or at least not enough to
warrant preserving it in MM3). I do think we need to be consistent
about tagging subjects to make client-side filtering more effective
for people who want that, but if we _do_ want to be able to upgrade
we shouldn't continue to rely on server-side filtering support in
Mailman unless we can somehow work with them to help in
reimplementing it.
--
Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Jeremy Stanley
In reply to this post by Chris Friesen
On 2018-08-30 12:57:31 -0600 (-0600), Chris Friesen wrote:
[...]
> Do we want to merge usage and development onto one list? That
> could be a busy list for someone who's just asking a simple usage
> question.

A counterargument though... projecting the number of unique posts to
all four lists combined for this year (both based on trending for
the past several years and also simply scaling the count of messages
this year so far based on how many days are left) comes out roughly
equal to the number of posts which were made to the general
openstack mailing list in 2012.

> Alternately, if we are going to merge everything then why not just
> use the "openstack" mailing list since it already exists and there
> are references to it on the web.

This was an option we discussed in the "One Community" forum session
as well. There seemed to be a slight preference for making a new
-disscuss list and retiring the old general one. I see either as an
potential solution here.

> (Or do you want to force people to move to something new to make them
> recognize that something has changed?)

That was one of the arguments made. Also I believe we have a *lot*
of "black hole" subscribers who aren't actually following that list
but whose addresses aren't bouncing new posts we send them for any
of a number of possible reasons.
--
Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [Openstack-operators] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Jeremy Stanley
In reply to this post by Thomas Goirand
On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote:
[...]
> I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in
> multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples.

I understand where you're coming from, and I used to feel similarly.
I was accustomed to communities where developers had one mailing
list, users had another, and whenever a user asked a question on the
developer mailing list they were told to go away and bother the user
mailing list instead (not even a good, old-fashioned "RTFM" for
their trouble). You're probably intimately familiar with at least
one of these communities. ;)

As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is
actually an antisocial behavior pattern, and actively harmful to the
user base. I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the
development work which is underway, come to understand it, and
become part of that process. Requiring them to have their
conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message.
--
Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [Openstack-operators] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Jimmy McArthur-2


Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote:
[...]
I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in
multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples.
IMO this is easily solved by tagging.  If emails are properly tagged (which they typically are), most email clients will properly sort on rules and you can just auto-delete if you're 100% not interested in a particular topic.

SNIP
As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is
actually an antisocial behavior pattern, and actively harmful to the
user base. I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the
development work which is underway, come to understand it, and
become part of that process. Requiring them to have their
conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message.
I really and truly believe that it has become a blocker for our community.  Conversations sent to multiple lists inherently splinter and we end up with different groups coming up with different solutions for a single problem.  Literally the opposite desired result of sending things to multiple lists.  I believe bringing these groups together, with tags, will solve a lot of immediate problems. It will also have an added bonus of allowing people "catching up" on the community to look to a single place for a thread i/o 1-5 separate lists.  It's better in both the short and long term.

Cheers,
Jimmy

  
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Re: [Openstack-operators] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Melvin Hillsman
I think the more we can reduce the ML sprawl the better. I also recall us discussing having some documentation or way of notifying net new signups of how to interact with the ML successfully. An example was having some general guidelines around tagging. Also as a maintainer for at least one of the mailing lists over the past 6+ months I have to inquire about how that will happen going forward which again could be part of this documentation/initial message.

Also there are many times I miss messages that for one reason or another do not hit the proper mailing list. I mean we could dive into the minutia or start up the mountain of why keeping things the way they are is worst than making this change and vice versa but I am willing to bet there are more advantages than disadvantages.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:45 PM Jimmy McArthur <[hidden email]> wrote:


Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote:
[...]
I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in
multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples.
IMO this is easily solved by tagging.  If emails are properly tagged (which they typically are), most email clients will properly sort on rules and you can just auto-delete if you're 100% not interested in a particular topic.

Yes, there are definitely ways to go about discarding unwanted mail automagically or not seeing it at all. And to be honest I think if we are relying on so many separate MLs to do that for us it is better community wide for the responsibility for that to be on individuals. It becomes very tiring and inefficient time wise to have to go through the various issues of the way things are now; cross-posting is a great example that is steadily getting worse.
 
SNIP
As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is
actually an antisocial behavior pattern, and actively harmful to the
user base. I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the
development work which is underway, come to understand it, and
become part of that process. Requiring them to have their
conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message.
I really and truly believe that it has become a blocker for our community.  Conversations sent to multiple lists inherently splinter and we end up with different groups coming up with different solutions for a single problem.  Literally the opposite desired result of sending things to multiple lists.  I believe bringing these groups together, with tags, will solve a lot of immediate problems. It will also have an added bonus of allowing people "catching up" on the community to look to a single place for a thread i/o 1-5 separate lists.  It's better in both the short and long term.

+1
 

Cheers,
Jimmy
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Melvin Hillsman
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mobile: (832) 264-2646

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Re: [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Tony Breeds
In reply to this post by Jeremy Stanley
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 09:12:57PM +0000, Jeremy Stanley wrote:

> On 2018-08-31 01:13:58 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote:
> [...]
> > What needs to be done for this is full topic categories support
> > under `options` page so people get to filter emails properly.
> [...]
>
> Unfortunately, topic filtering is one of the MM2 features the
> Mailman community decided nobody used (or at least not enough to
> warrant preserving it in MM3). I do think we need to be consistent
> about tagging subjects to make client-side filtering more effective
> for people who want that, but if we _do_ want to be able to upgrade
> we shouldn't continue to rely on server-side filtering support in
> Mailman unless we can somehow work with them to help in
> reimplementing it.
The suggestion is to implement it as a 3rd party plugin or work with the
mm community to implement:
https://wiki.mailman.psf.io/DEV/Dynamic%20Sublists

So if we decide we really want that in mm3 we have options.

Yours Tony.

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Re: [Openstack-sigs] [Openstack-operators] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Jeremy Stanley
In reply to this post by Melvin Hillsman
On 2018-08-30 18:08:56 -0500 (-0500), Melvin Hillsman wrote:
[...]
> I also recall us discussing having some documentation or way of
> notifying net new signups of how to interact with the ML
> successfully. An example was having some general guidelines around
> tagging. Also as a maintainer for at least one of the mailing
> lists over the past 6+ months I have to inquire about how that
> will happen going forward which again could be part of this
> documentation/initial message.
[...]

Mailman supports customizable welcome messages for new subscribers,
so the *technical* implementation there is easy. I do think (and
failed to highlight it explicitly earlier I'm afraid) that this
proposal comes with an expectation that we provide recommended
guidelines for mailing list use/etiquette appropriate to our
community. It could be contained entirely within the welcome
message, or merely linked to a published document (and whether
that's best suited for the Infra Manual or New Contributor Guide or
somewhere else entirely is certainly up for debate), or even
potentially both.
--
Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Stephen Finucane
In reply to this post by Tony Breeds
On Fri, 2018-08-31 at 10:03 +1000, Tony Breeds wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 09:12:57PM +0000, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> > On 2018-08-31 01:13:58 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote:
> > [...]
> > > What needs to be done for this is full topic categories support
> > > under `options` page so people get to filter emails properly.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Unfortunately, topic filtering is one of the MM2 features the
> > Mailman community decided nobody used (or at least not enough to
> > warrant preserving it in MM3). I do think we need to be consistent
> > about tagging subjects to make client-side filtering more effective
> > for people who want that, but if we _do_ want to be able to upgrade
> > we shouldn't continue to rely on server-side filtering support in
> > Mailman unless we can somehow work with them to help in
> > reimplementing it.
>
> The suggestion is to implement it as a 3rd party plugin or work with the
> mm community to implement:
> https://wiki.mailman.psf.io/DEV/Dynamic%20Sublists
>
> So if we decide we really want that in mm3 we have options.
>
> Yours Tony.

I've tinked with mailman 3 before so I could probably take a shot at
this over the next few week(end)s; however, I've no idea how this
feature is supposed to work. Any chance an admin of the current list
could send me a couple of screenshots of the feature in mailman 2 along
with a brief description of the feature? Alternatively, maybe we could
upload them to the wiki page Tony linked above or, better yet, to the
technical details page for same:

  https://wiki.mailman.psf.io/DEV/Brief%20Technical%20Details

Cheers,
Stephen


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Re: [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Thierry Carrez
In reply to this post by Jeremy Stanley
Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> [...]
> The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list
> to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other
> four. [...]
>
> Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this
> message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;)

As someone who just had to process a dozen of ML moderation requests
about non-member posting to lists due to replies to a cross-posted
topic, I wholeheartedly support the list merging :)

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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Re: [Openstack-operators] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)

Thomas Goirand
In reply to this post by Jeremy Stanley
On 08/30/2018 11:33 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote:
> [...]
>> I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in
>> multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples.
>
> I understand where you're coming from

I'm coming from the time when OpenStack had a list on launchpad where
everything was mixed. We did the split because it was really annoying to
have everything mixed.

> I was accustomed to communities where developers had one mailing
> list, users had another, and whenever a user asked a question on the
> developer mailing list they were told to go away and bother the user
> mailing list instead (not even a good, old-fashioned "RTFM" for
> their trouble).

I don't think that's what we are doing. Usually, when someone does the
mistake, we do reply to him/her, at the same time pointing to the
correct list.

> You're probably intimately familiar with at least
> one of these communities. ;)

I know what you have in mind! Indeed, in that list, it happens that some
people are a bit harsh to users. Hopefully, the folks in OpenStack devel
aren't like this.

> As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is
> actually an antisocial behavior pattern

In the OpenStack lists, every day, some developers take the time to
answer users. So I don't see what there is to fix.

> I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the
> development work which is underway, come to understand it, and
> become part of that process.

Users are very much welcome in our -dev list. I don't think there's a
problem here.

> Requiring them to have their
> conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message.

In many places and occasion, we've sent the correct message.

On 08/30/2018 11:45 PM, Jimmy McArthur wrote:
> IMO this is easily solved by tagging.  If emails are properly tagged
> (which they typically are), most email clients will properly sort on
> rules and you can just auto-delete if you're 100% not interested in a
> particular topic.

This topically works with folks used to send tags. It doesn't for new
comers, which is what you see with newbies coming to ask questions.

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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Mailman topic filtering (was: Bringing the community together...)

Jeremy Stanley
In reply to this post by Stephen Finucane
On 2018-08-31 09:35:55 +0100 (+0100), Stephen Finucane wrote:
[...]
> I've tinked with mailman 3 before so I could probably take a shot at
> this over the next few week(end)s; however, I've no idea how this
> feature is supposed to work. Any chance an admin of the current list
> could send me a couple of screenshots of the feature in mailman 2 along
> with a brief description of the feature? Alternatively, maybe we could
> upload them to the wiki page Tony linked above or, better yet, to the
> technical details page for same:
>
>   https://wiki.mailman.psf.io/DEV/Brief%20Technical%20Details

Looks like this should be
https://wiki.list.org/DEV/Brief%20Technical%20Details instead,
however reading through it doesn't really sound like the topic
filtering feature from MM2.

The List Member Manual has a very brief description of the feature
from the subscriber standpoint:

    http://www.list.org/mailman-member/node29.html

The List Administration Manual unfortunately doesn't have any
content for the feature, just a stubbed-out section heading:

    http://www.list.org/mailman-admin/node30.html

Sending screenshots to the ML is a bit tough, but luckily MIT's
listadmins have posted some so we don't need to:

    http://web.mit.edu/lists/mailman/topics.html

--
Jeremy Stanley

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